The Manosphere & Christian Marriage


Hello! It looks like I am live
broadcasting on YouTube and I have an RSS feed set up, so this will auto/post
and be syndicated across various platforms and podcasts etc. So if you can
join me, please do. I did not announce this ahead of time. I’m doing this on the
fly. So I’m not sure how much live action we are going to get. If this is your
first time joining me with Nagging Thoughts, I’ll give you a brief recap as
I do every episode. [siren] I’m in New York City. So if you can hear the city outside, I
apologize for the ambient noise. This is the best it’s gonna get. In any case, my name
is Gisele Noel and I’ve written a book called Nagging Thoughts From A
Proverbs 27:16 Woman. It’s based on my experience with 18 years of marriage to
someone with a secret sex life the entire duration of the marriage. And
unfortunately, despite receiving receiving roughly two and a half years
grand total of Christian marriage counseling from a couple of different
sources, nobody was able to come close to exposing this dynamic within my marriage.
I only started to learn about it after I announced my decision to divorce. So I
wrote the book to analyze not only my experience in marriage, but really to
analyze some of the best-selling Christian marriage theology that is out
there today that really helped to facilitate this deception for going on
as long as it did. I have made my way through the bulk of all of the material
in my book that relates to the Bible because to me, that is really what counts
and what is most important. So please do take a look at the content I have
already uploaded and let me know what your thoughts are, and your
questions — even if they’re hater comments. Whatever your thoughts are, this
is an open forum and I think the more that we discuss these matters as men and
women, the better things… the better chance we have at things getting better.
But this is, (my content is) directed towards the Christian community. This
does not apply to other arrangements and other types of understandings of
marriage, but really to those that want to try to honor God (the God of the Bible)
in their marriage. So with that said, what I want to talk about today really has to
do with manhood. I’ve talked about the influence of the book Love & Respect
and how toxic the concept of “unconditional respect” was in the context
of my deceptive marriage. I also talked about the pro, (how should I say this?) the
the pro-theatric message that I got from the complementarian camp, and not
only with the anecdotal story that was included in an otherwise great
Christian marriage book called The Meaning of Marriage, but in other
materials as well. From Real Marriage, (that was the title of that book) and a
sermon in particular called Taking Out The Trash that was given by Mark
Driscoll. That was all reinforced by our last round of marriage counseling that
really honed in on this encouraging women to really dramatize and act out
things in order for husbands to be able to understand what is that the woman is
trying to say is an issue in a marriage, which I don’t think is a very healthy
thing. I think it’s a pretty insulting thing for both men and women on both
sides of that coin. But what I want to talk about today are actually one
Christian book one non-christian book that really kind of had the exact same
message. The non-Christian book is Men Are From Mars, Women Are
Venus and the Christian book is Wild At Heart. Let me check what the title
actually is… Ah, Wild At Heart: Discovering The Secret To A Man’s Soul. And so let
me start with the Men Are From Mars. This, I believe, is where we actually kind of
originated this concept of… (hey, Mike! good to see you). So the book Men Are From Mars,
Women Are From Venus, I believe that’s where this concept of the man cave
really originated. And that author I believe that’s… I apologize, it’s been a
while since I’ve looked that up. I think it’s John Gray. But anyway, it’s
a very famous book, very well noted and very popular. And he really is telling
women to back off and give men space when there is a conflict and when things
are difficult, that men need to retreat, which is all well and good. But the
problem is the there’s something else that also likes to retreat and that
is sin. Sin loves to hide and it loves to go into its hole, in its cave and go
online and do whatever. And you have to respect the manhood. So this is
why there’s overlap between a man’s, natural need to take a step back to
process things and the sin that is able to grow in the shadows. And this is kind
of what helped facilitate the deception growing to just absurd levels in my
marriage. Another companion to that, that really took it to the next level was
this Christian book Wild At Heart which essentially is encouraging men to be
warriors &, you know, wild & dangerous. And it actively
encourages men, grown men, to go out into the woods and do something
just dangerous to get in touch with their manhood (grunt, grunt, grunt).
That’s a Tim Allen quote, “ugh, ugh ugh.” Anyway so, because of the influence of all of this
Manosphere teaching, I actually actively supported my husband going (to across the
globe), to a country well-known for sex trafficking. And when I got push back
from my friends and family, I said, “you don’t understand, he’s a Christian, you
know. He needs to go out there and do this for his manhood. He’s doing this for our marriage.” And he actually told me that, “I’m doing this to
be a better husband.” I fully supported him and it’s just
so absurd because he was actually going out there to see the woman he’d been
in an affair with online for at least 10 years. So it was just absolutely
ridiculous that I’m the one nurturing him, encouraging him to to go see this
woman that had captured his heart. And anyway, so that’s really what I wanted to
talk about: is that part of what the deception was in my marriage is that
there is this overlap between, you know, what men are saying that they need
as men (that they need to be isolated, they need to be not challenged, they need
to go into their caves and just be a man alone, and and go across the globe and do
reckless things and that that’s gonna somehow make them better husbands and
better fathers) and it’s it’s a lie. And it really ends up doing damage to the
man if you ask me. Because now they’re trying to live this fantasy manhood and
it’s not fulfilling. And in my opinion, if you really want to feel like a man, you
are gonna shoulder responsibility. And you won’t need the external validation
of hookers, whores and whatever else it is that
you’re chasing, drugs and alcohol, and career success or whatever it may be to
be celebrated and dangerous and reckless. I think if if you do the boring things
in life and you shoulder the responsibilities in life, you’re gonna
get the self-respect that you’re chasing In all these other things. And I think
those are the things that are gonna make you really feel like a man. But, you know,
this is, you know, I’m not a man. So you can dismiss what I have to say, and I’m
sure that the the ones that have embraced machoism will definitely do
that. But my intent in sharing my thoughts is that hopefully men won’t
have to live up to this caricature of what manhood is. And that they can be a
fully orbed human beings, and be vulnerable, and communicate, and be
present in their relationships, and be committed and faithful. And hopefully,
that will be reciprocated. I know it’s not always the case. But that’s
my hope. And that’s… So anyway, I’m hoping, I was hoping that maybe some other
people might join in and tell me what their thoughts are. One thing I kind of
want to dovetail on on this topic of how this man cave reckless,
you know, escapism thing that is tied to this notion of manhood through books
like Wild At Heart and Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus
is that one of the differences in my opinion that you can tell that somebody
needs to have their space to process their feelings versus somebody hiding
and indulging in sin, one of the biggest red flags that you can have is if there
is unprovoked hostility and if there is absolute redirecting
anytime there’s an issue. If you approach somebody and say I have an issue with X
Y OR Z (not X Y & Z) but I have an issue with X that you’re doing, and then
they hit you with the whole alphabet and say, “oh really?
Cuz you’ve got ABCDEFGHIJKNIPQRS TUVWXYZ and then some, so silence!” So if
they redirect to you, if they tell you this message: they give you this idea
that basically you are not able to criticize or challenge or hold anyone
accountable until you’re perfect yourself, then I would say that’s an
absolute major red flag that they are not doing their part to be a better
human being but are indulging and hiding in sin. So I hope that’s helpful to you
and I think what I’m gonna do since I’ve made my way through all of my major
points in my book I am gonna start going through some other YouTube videos by
other people, other teachers, other Christian preachers that address the
issue of marriage and just share my feedback with you and let you know what
I think they got right that accurately honors God in marriage, and where I think
that they are actually being self serving with humanity. And I look forward
to hearing, you know, what what you guys think. And I hope we can interact. Alright,
that’s it for this time. Thank you guys so much for your time. And I look forward
to talking with you next Nagging Thought! Alright, let me see if
I can figure out how to end this thing now, okay.

Michael Martin

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