Group Therapy demonstration: Gizelle – marriage after 50

Gizzelle… Yes. I’m looking at the sparkles on your top. Yeah. I like sparkly stuff. One of the things I’m aware right now, sitting
here with you is, I assume you’re African-American? Mhm. Yeah. Well, black. Black. Yeah. I don’t use African-American. You don’t use African-American. You’re black. Okay. Mhm. So, you’re black. Mhm. And, I mean, I’ve been in the States, I don’t
know, a bit over a year now, in a small circle of people, there’s not a lot of people I know,
and, I mean, I know a lot about �the black experience’ or the politics and the geo-history
and, you know, I read a lot about it, I’m very knowledgeable in a general way about
that and, you know, very interested in that, but I don’t, I don’t have much, almost any,
kind of, first hand, really, experience of black culture. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s a bit ubiquitous
in the, in the hip-hop realm or, you know, you know, it’s there now and, But I don’t
have that much direct experience. So, in some way, you know, in these terms,
I’m, kind of, interested in your world and, you know, where the interface is. I grew up in Australia. WHere I grew up, Tasmania, was, you know,
there wasn’t much racial diversity at all. I mean, a few immigrants, wogs they were called
most days, Italians and Greeks, but, you know, growing up almost nothing there tempts diversity. And, so, yeah, I’m, kind of, a bit curious,
I guess, about, you know, So, in some ways, I really don’t know directly much or have
much direct experience, really. Mhm, Okay. So, you know, I don’t know where that leads
with you, but I wanted to say something about that. Okay. Where does that lead, It makes me think about
some day you were talking with Serafina about, she was talking about just feeling different,
like, where she was, of feeling different and weird, you know, Not that I feel weird,
but it’s certainly an experience of feeling different. Many times when, you know, navigating and
being black in America. I mean, it’s something that you wear every
day, it’s, that’s, kind of, what it’s like. So, But, you know, you just are who you are
and, you know, we adjust with the environment and the situation and, you know, you connect
with people on whatever level you connect, Yeah. , with them. You know what, Human levels, , I’m saying, like, , of course, yeah, Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, well, there’s all sorts of differences,
as well gender difference between you and I, Right. Mhm. Kind of, cultural difference to a great degree. Obviously, there’s lots of places of difference
that you can be interested in or pay attention to. But, you know, I find a lot of strength in
my, you know, being black. I find that to be very powerful. Mhm. And, you know, just like you say you’re from
Australia, you know, when you mention that, I think of, like, the Aboriginal people there
and how that I’m connected to them, even though I’m, I don’t have a lot of direct experience
with knowing someone who’s, you know, Australian-Aboriginal, I don’t know, I haven’t met anyone, I haven’t
heard anyone’s life story except for, you know, something you see on television or something,
but I do feel like I’m a part of that community, as a person who is African in origin. Though, there’s, there’s, there’s differences
there and that they’re indigenous and they weren’t brought in, so, as a, kind of, strange
reversal where they were the original people of the country, Right. , yet they were completely displaced, in a
way, which is also, obviously, parallel to the experience of displacement or othering
or things like that. And, and I think there’s parallels too in
that, you know, I mean, although they were indigenous to Australia, I mean, you know,
at one point everything was Pangea, you know what I’m saying, Sure. , and I’m sure, if I were to be able to have
a conversation, you know, with Aboriginal, you know, they might be able to describe some
of the same things that I experience as a black person in America, which is a feeling
of, and maybe, maybe not, I don’t know, of, kind of, like, a little bit of disconnectedness,
because I don’t have a clear idea of where my history is. I have a, kind of, guesstimate, if you will. Okay, i know I’m of African descent, okay,
but I don’t know exactly, Like, you know, people, Italian-American say -Oh, yeah, my
family, they came from northern Italy or from Sicily or,- you know, or -My people come from
Scandinavia,- I don’t really have a clear exact idea of, So, you kind of, sometimes
feel a little lost. Yeah, I could understand that. And, I guess, I would imagine the parallels
of that, although the Aborigines do have some kind of connection there going back, at the
same time the Government policy, particularly in the, from the, sort of, late 19th to the
middle of the 20th century was to remove Aboriginal children from their homes and to break up
a family, so there has been quite a lot of that dislocation occurred. So, yeah, okay. So, I’m, kind of, interested in, meeting you
in some ways that I can, you know, understand something about you or you understand something
about me or interface of the differences. I guess, I’m, I’m aware of, like, obviously,
there’s cultural differences, Australia and the US, although my parents are from here,
but then there’s also, you know, kind of, subcultural differences, Mhm. Yeah. Well, like, what, what did you have in mind
about, Yeah, it’s a very, , differences. , it’s a big, I mean, yeah, it’s big. , thing, so I’m, well, Like, well, I’ll say for myself, again, I
can really, kind of, relate to Serafina when she was saying about turning fifty. I’m fifty one. Oh, alright. Okay. And I don’t know if it happened right when
I turned fifty, it could have been a little bit before that, but, I, kind of, I used to
tell people that it was my second wind. Mhm. Like, I almost, kind of, felt like, you know,
because my kids are grown. Right, yeah. And I, kind of, almost felt like I was reborn, Yeah, , and I was, like, rediscovering myself, Yeah. And, so, I’m still, kind of, in that process
of, like, really, just really liking who I am, Hm, , and, kind of, returning back to me, the
real core of me, who I am. So, that whole process, I’m really enjoying
that whole process. Right, And I, kind of, feel like a little bit of
a role model, leader to the younger ladies, that, you know, you’re going to make it to
this point and it’s awesome and you’re going to feel really good, don’t pay attention to
the people that said -Oh, you know, you’re going to get old and you’re going to have
menopause and this is going to be horrible and, you know, it’s time to die.- No, it’s
not. It’s time to just be, like, throw off the
chains of society and just do you. So, that’s where I am. Right, Right, I feel, I feel a little, kind
of, charged up with energy when I hear you talking like this and… Yeah, it feels good to be able to say that. Yeah, Yeah. So, So, I mean, that’s the, the, kind of,
broader component, I guess, of women turning fifty, you know, of whatever, you know, background,
there’s something, My wife’s turned fifty, you know, I understand something about that
process and, you know, the transition that happens with the kids leaving home and, Right, , a space to be yourself and, Right. , find your identity. So, you know, I understand also at first hand
some things about that. And as I hear about your experience, I feel
pleasure, like, wow, and that’s my positive judgment. So, wow, that’s really cool that that’s what
you’re experiencing and you’ve got your second wind and I’m very happy to hear that and,
And then, at the same time as I’m hearing that, like, I’ll call it your style, your
way of expressing yourself, like, I’m enjoying that because there’s, Well, for me, I’m going
to characterize it, this is just my frame, okay? There’s a, kind of, both a, kind of, like
a somewhat dramatic quality that I enjoy to your expression and also a, kind of, again,
this is my characterization, like a, kind of, slightly poetic way that you’re talking. That’s what I’m calling it, you know, that’s
my experience, that I’m also enjoying. It’s, like, wow, that’s, there’s a, kind of,
a rhythm to the way that you’re speaking and the words you’re using come together in a
particular way. So, I’m noticing my experience of that, which
is very pleasurable as well as the content and the energy of what you’re talking about. And I’m associating some of this, kind of,
rhythm, what I’m calling, the rhythm or the poetry or the dramatic expression with, you
know, something of your, well, black background. I mean, that’s certainly the association I
would have and then first hand as I experience that, I’m, like, wow, that’s, I really like
that, I dig that, that’s different, that’s not how I experience people around me talking. So, when you express yourself in that way,
I’m, kind of, I’m quite, I’m a bit in trance, I guess. Well, I mean, I guess I don’t, I mean, I’m
sure it is, has to do with my, you know, cultural background, partly, I’m sure, because part
of everybody, I mean, that is part of an individual, but, I mean, I think, too, it just has to
do with me and who I am. I’m, you know, I’m a creative person, Right. , I like writing, I like poetry, I like music, Okay, uh huh… , I like, you know, nature, I’ve always loved
rocks and sticks and, you know, so, you know, I’m a person who feels connected to the earth
and I feel like things like that are ways to connect with people. You know, words and music and food and sex
and, you know, just all that stuff, you know, that’s, that’s what it’s all about, love,
you know, just, you know, Because I feel like this was a good, I have, I’m struggling to
come, I do say I was struggling to come, but I said -No, I think I’m supposed to be there.-
So, you know, I felt like I’m supposed to be here, share this time and space with the
people that are here and, you know, just learn from it. Yeah, And as I’m listening to you, I also
get that sense. I’m open to you and I’m, I have some, I don’t
know, like, I don’t know quite how to describe it, idea that, yeah, I can also learn from
you in, also, in terms of who you are and the places you’ve come to, as well as the
way you express yourself. Mhm. Yeah, and I think, part of how I express myself
too is, it, I mean, like, it, maybe that’s why Gestalt, kind of, was attractive to me,
because it’s, when you have a client in the room, you can be in the room with them and
it’s very relational. So, I think that’s why it was attractive to
me. Sure. Because I don’t, I don’t prefer being a blank
slate or keeping distance and I don’t prefer a therapist that relates to me in that way,
it doesn’t feel, like, for me, it feels manipulative and it doesn’t feel real, it feels, kind of,
inauthentic, Mhm. I just feel like connecting, you know, comes
through really relating to the person, you know? So, it’s okay to sometimes talk about television
or, you know, what you did last week or, you know, just to get the stuff flowing, Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that’s okay… Yeah. , to do that. Yeah, well, that’s, That’s okay. , my interest as well. So, my experience with you, I’m, I’m enjoying
relating with you, to you, I’m interested in you, I’m noticing my experience with you
and, yeah, I notice, I feel, I feel a certain kind of, how to describe it, like, Well, I
find it very easy to connect with you, like, just an energetic, emotional feeling. I guess, again, partly it’s what you say and
partly it’s your style of expression that I notice and find it easy to feel connected
to or relaxed around. And, you know, that’s the part I, you know,
with being a therapist, that’s, that was actually a struggle for me, because I found when I,
you know, when I started, I had my first clients and, you know, whatever, that was the part
that’s easy for me, is establishing a connection and a relationship and all that stuff, but,
you know, I would struggle with, you know, but am I doing theoretically, am I on the
right path? You know, Yeah, okay, And, you know, am I going to be judged because
I’m not doing it right? Yeah, sure, Or, you know, am I going to be thought of as like a fraud
because, you know, that’s all I have is a relationship and my intuition? And, you know, like, Right, Okay, , these are the things that I was, kind of,
kind of, afraid of, you know, like, being judged, that’s my whole thing, being judged,
uhm, you know, you’re not doing it right, Right. Yeah, okay. Those are your fears. Well, I mean, you know, when you say �just
have the my relationship and my intuition’, I mean, in my evaluative scale, I go, well,
that’s most of it, from my point of view. Right. So, I rate that highly. And I hear, yeah, you fear of having negative
judgments about you, as well. I’ve come to accept that that’s my strength. Hm, Good. And that, if I have a client that responds
to that then we have a right combination and that, if I get a client that doesn’t really
respond to that, then, you know, I can try to maybe adjust to a certain extent, but I
can’t completely erase who I am. And, so, we just weren’t a right combination
and they should probably find a different clinician that matches better with them. That’s right. ANd that’s how I’ve come to try to, kind of,
understand, Yeah, that sounds like a good way to think
about it. Mhm. So, I also find, another thing I notice in
my experience with you is I feel a little bit playful, partly because of the, what I
experience as your rhythm and such, I feel a certain, I’m describing it as playfulness,
kind of, lightness, like, yeah, I feel like that right now. I was, kind of, anxious about talking, but
I do feel like that right, you know, I feel, I do feel more relaxed and, more, it is easier
to talk. But I was also, like, wondering, like, what
am I going to talk about? I’m thinking, okay, let’s see, I’ve got this
problem and this problem and this problem, I’m, like, yeah, I’ll just let it, Sure. Whatever it comes up, I’ll just let it come
up. So, you mentioned the fear of judgment, I
assume negative judgment. Do you experience that with me? No, Not that I can feel, Okay. So, what circumstances does that come up in? Well, when, I think, when I first started
my, Gosh, it comes up, so many places, but, What’s the recent place? Probably, Probably. I’d either say school or my relationship. Okay, well, I mean, school, in a way, judgment
is a feature of that, because you’re being evaluated and, Yeah, , you know, that’s the nature of the school, Yeah. , experience and learning, experience to some
degree. So, perhaps, Although we don’t have grades… Yeah, , but still there is, Well, but, , there you’re still being judged. , there’s, you’re being judged, you’re being, Yeah, Do you pass or not in the end, that’s the
question. So, that’s, kind of, structurally there to
some degree. So, maybe tell me a little bit about where
that happens in relationship for you. Well, Like, in my relationship, Well, I’m
married. Mhm. But is, it’s evolving toward the end. Yeah, probably more on my s, well, probably
more on my side and i think because I’m coming to a place where I feel more like I’m being
who I am, like really who I am, Yeah, I got that. Just not, not, you know, fitting, meeting
in the right place, Mhm, And, so, I think me becoming more of who I
am, it looks more to my partner like I’m changing. Mhm, Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, So, And because the changing, doesn’t
match with where he is or how he believes or thinks or, It, that’s where, like, the
judgment and the criticism is and stuff comes up. Sure. Well, I, just to step back a bit, I think
that that’s a feature of many couples in their fifties with grown kids, exactly what you’re
describing, is at issue where especially the woman comes into a self and seems to be changing
and then where’s the fears, and, you know, I, and I do understand quite a lot about those,
kind of, issues. So, without even knowing the details, that
makes some sense to me. And, so, when you describe your husband’s
responses being judging you, it would seem to me that underneath that, if I can just
take a step back, I guess, he’s uncomfortable, insecure, threatened, Possibly, Possibly? Okay, so, you’re not so clear about that? Or he doesn’t articulate that? Or it’s not so evident? You just get the butt end of it? I mean, if I were to, you know, base it on
what I think, Yeah, , sure, but I, He, He wouldn’t admit, like,
�Oh, I’m insecure or I’m threatened or,’, you know, I’m saying, So, how on Earth does he make that a criticism
about you? I mean, I’m just curious, like, give me an
example of, An example, You come into yourself, yeah, you’re evolving,
changing, whatever. I mean, how, where’s the criticism in that
other than you’re not the same as you were, which is, kind of, a bit of a strange criticism
in a way? Well, you know what? Sometimes the criticism is, it’s, kind of,
tricky. Mhm, You know, makes me think of Rose’s little
barbs. Like, maybe not criticising me directly, So,? But, maybe criticizing, Okay, what we black
folks say is going around the dog’s house, go around dog’s house. Going around,? Dog’s house. I don’t understand that. That means you don’t do it directly, you go
around the back door to do it. Oh, okay. So, for example, Dog, and you call it,? Go around the dog’s house. I don’t know why. Okay. No, that’s okay, I just never heard of it
before. Going around the dog’s house. So, that’s the back door, Yes, mhm, , criticism. Okay. So, say, for instance, okay, so, I would say
the most recent thing was Tuesday, I took off work to participate in a protest. So, I went to Glendale to participate in a
protest and it had to do with the Dominican Republic and how they’ve, Mhm. Oh, yeah, I’ve been listening to that. Yeah. , kind of, reversed people’s citizenships. It’s crazy, Crazy, yeah. So, I went to the Dominican Republic consulate, Yeah. , and I did a protest and, you know, it felt
very empowering, Yeah. , just, like, only fifteen people there, but
it doesn’t matter. Mhm. And I, just, the whole day all around was,
like, really cool, because my son lives in Glendale, so I parked near his house, I walked
down to the protest, I walked back, he took me to lunch, then he had to go work, but I
got to chill in his awesome little apartment and watch his huge TV and it was, like, really
cool. So, I got home and, you know, I was… still
felt, kind of, Yeah, , buoyant and excited about the whole experience, Yeah, , so, I was trying to share it with him, I
was, like, -Oh, you know, I,- and I had pictures in my phone, I was, like -Oh, yeah, look,
you know, I have these pictures,- and I met, like, Margaret Prescod, she’s, like, a, kind
of, radio personality. And, so, I said -Oh, look, it’s Margaret Prescod
and….- and the first thing he did was -Oh, yeah, let me see this.- So, he made the picture
bigger so that he could criticize what the protesters had on the signs. So, that felt, to me, like, a, it made, Okay,
he said -Oh, well, I wasn’t criticizing you, you took it personal.- but it felt like a
criticism of me. Well, I understand that contextually, rather
than connecting with you, Right. I was trying to share with him. , in the place where you’re at. Right. Whether that’s the content or the feeling
or your day, instead of connecting with that, Right. , he came in the back door, you know, examined
a little detail that, kind of, he could criticize, Right. , and that, whether he intended it or not,
the fact is, he wasn’t meeting you in the place. Right. He offered some other, kind of, contact, which
was a critical kind of contact. Right. And I, And, you know, and it upset me, so
I said -Why do you have to criticize?- So, which, of course, made him angry and he said
-Oh, you disrespected me.- which I, I didn’t get that. Mhm, You know, maybe it could, youk now, and I’m
a therapist, but I don’t always have my therapist hat on in every situation. Sure. I don’t always remember all the tools and
the �I’ statements and the bla bla bla when I’m doing my own stuff, Yeah, I get that. Sure. So, it turned into this big old, to do, It’s got his resentments from somewhere. Right. And, you know, and I let him, like, push my
buttons, Yeah, , and he went higher and higher and I was
just, like -Whoaa,.- So, yeah. Ouch. It, kind of, I mean, I’ve already decided,
like, this has come to an end. This? This relationship. Oh, But, I, once I was like questioning if I had
done due diligence, so to speak, Yeah, got the, , and done all that I should do to make sure, Yes, yes, yes, , and, so, it just made me say -Yeah, I did
my due diligence.- Does he know that? No. Ouch. I got ouch, because I’m immediately identifying
with him. I’m, like -Oh my God, the guy doesn’t know. It’s like one of the dumbfuck men like me
that just doesn’t get it and women are doing their thing and we’re just completely behind
the eight ball and then we’re surprised,- I got a whole narrative about us dumb men,
you know, so I’m, like, oh, okay, he doesn’t realize, oh, oh,. Okay. So, I got some of the picture. And you know what? I don’t feel bad about that, because, About what? Not saying yet where I am, Because,? , and only because he’s, like, a vengeful,
vindictive type person. Ouch. Okay. That’s in the way… So, if I was to say -Well, you know what? This is where I am and this is what, you know,
let’s do this, let’s, you know, start the process of this,- he would be vengeful and
vindictive. So, I feel like, Mmmm, okay, … for my own… Yeah, …self-care, Yeah, , he will know at that time that’s convenient
for me. Okay. Wow. I go wow because I’m, like, ouch, ouch, both
ways. That’s ouchy. So, immediately I, There’s a number of things that immediately, Mhm. , come up for me. So, one thing is to do with due diligence and
that little snapshot that I, you know, like to, sort of, talk to you about. The other is to do with a bigger picture of,
kind of, nearing the end, he doesn’t know, you’re afraid of the vindictiveness. So, those are, like, two things I’m, Yeah, right. , interested in engaging you with. Okay. Well, when that whole, like, big blow up thing
happened, And, like, Monday is my therapy day. Okay. So, I talk with my therapist about all these
stuff. And then Tuesday, the big to do happened. And then I was supposed to be doing my due
diligence and saying -Oh, what do you think about couples therapy.- right? That was part of my due diligence. So, you know, there was a big blow up and
then he apologized and he was, like -Well, you know, that probably wasn’t the best time
for me to say these things and bla bla bla,- Okay. So, that’s over, we, we were passed that. So, then, the next day I said -Oh, okay, so,
what do you think about going to, like, a couples therapy?- And then it turned into
a big lecture about why couples therapy is not good. So, then I felt very, Mhm. You know, I almost, I felt relie, No, let
me be truthful. I was sad. I was disappointed, because I, I, kind of,
didn’t expect him to say that, so I said -You know what? Gizelle, just let yourself be sad.- So, I
did, I let myself be sad, I, kind of, cried for, you know, it was, it was a very long. So, I let myself be sad, like, even now I
feel a little, Yeah, sure, , residual of it. But not a lot. Yeah, I think it probably lasts for about thirty
seconds. Okay. I let myself feel it and I was, like, okay. I was, like, I didn’t expect, and I didn’t
expect to be disappointed, really, but I said, okay, I’m going to let myself feel this. I’m a little sad, I’m a little disappointed,
you know, I, kind of, processed it, it felt a little bit like abandonment. Yeah, sure. And, and which I know some of that is some
of my old stuff from back there. Mhm, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. And, so, I said, well, you know, some of that’s
just some of my old stuff, Mhm, yeah, okay. Mhm. I said, but, you know what, you did due diligence. So, now you can go forward and feel good about
it. Right. Okay. Well, here’s what I’d like to do with you. Okay. I’d like to, in a friendly, Mhm. , and supportive way, press you a bit about
your version of due diligence. Mmm, Uuuu, That’s scary. Yeah, I, I understand, Now, are you coming from a place of that man
who didn’t know and feels very, like, -Oh, I didn’t know and it blindsided me.-? Are you coming from that place? You know what? I’m, I’m coming from two places. Okay. Or three, actually, at least. I’m coming from that man, yes. Yeah, okay. I’m also coming from, kind of, therapist, Mhm, , like, there’s some things I think that maybe
you don’t quite see that I’d like to explore with you. Ohhh, yeah, that’s, yeah, that’s scary too. And I’m also coming from your side, because,
you know, Okay. , I do get something about your world as a
woman’s position, something that my wife and I talk about a lot, you know, I do, although
I’m not a woman, but I do, I think, get a fair bit of, Okay. , what goes on, probably what’s happening
for you. I’m in the same generation, so, you know,
I, kind of, get that as well. Okay. So, I’m, sort of, coming from those three
places, actually. Okay. Well, I’ll, I’ll be open. Okay. Yeah. So, Well, See, here’s the tricky thing. Mhm. My nominating that I’d like to press you a
bit about the due diligence, so easily can look like me being critical of you… Oh.. hmm, , or judging you in your sincere efforts,
you know, that’s a tricky edge here. Yeah, I could understand part of the -Uuuu,- might
be that as well. Yeah, I think maybe a little bit. Yeah, So, you know, I want to, I want to find
a way, if we can, Mhm, , if I can with you, to navigate through this,
in a way which is supportive, a little bit of a press, Mhm. , respectful, Mhm. , going at the right pace for you, Okay. You know, I want to find a way to navigate
through this with you. Okay. So, the first bit of that for me is acknowledging
the �Hmmm..?’ you know? Hmmm…? Yeah, I want to acknowledge that your, you know. And your also, your understandable fear about
me maybe, you know, steamrolling you over as a man or just, you know, holding up the
man flag or something, you know, like, I acknowledge that as well. I imagine that’s part of it and part of it
the �Uuuu,’. I’m imagining there’s a bit about -Oh, here
comes something a bit critical,- Mhm. Even if it might be useful or accurate, but
still it’s, kind of, in that critical ballpark. Yeah, I think part of it is because I already
got to a certain place, Yeah, , and then, if you, Don’t undo me! , point out some stuff, I’m going to have
to go back. Owwww, owww, owww,. Okay, And you’re thinking about, Yeah, , more stuff. Yeah, you’ve already marshaled yourself, Yeah, , and you’re marshaling your forces, Mhm. , don’t need someone to, That’s part of the, , kind of, bring you some doubt or, Mhm. , you’ve got your momentum up, you’re already,
kind of, Right, , on the way there, Mhm. , you’ve got all the markers of -Yeah, I’ve
done that and now it’s okay.- So, Right. , don’t rock my boat. Something like that? Yeah, Yes. Okay, I can understand that, I can really
get that and, you know, maybe you don’t want your boat rocked, maybe you just want to do
your thing and you don’t really want to hear from me and, I mean, that’s, I’m, that’s okay
too by me. I’m, I don’t, I don’t have to fly the flag
or press because I can or because that might be helpful to you. You know, if you, if you’ve got your course
set, I, it’s not for me to, Uhm, But, you know what? I, I just want to be a better me. So, Mhm, , that’s fine, ebcuase, ultimately, it’s still
my decision, Yeah, So, even if you point out some stuff, Mhm. , and I’m, like, you know what? Yeah, he’s right. You know, it still doesn’t mean it’s going
to work with this partner. Absolutely, yeah. Mhm. And I still might end up going on. Yes. But, I want to be able to go on and not make
the same mistakes. Okay. Good. Then, So, it’s, it’s, , there can be some valuable learning, Yes. , possibly, here in this, yeah. I think so. Okay, great. Then, Then we’re on the same page, as far
as that goes. Okay. And then another aspect of that, that I also
want to acknowledge, so that it’s not just about me pressing you, but it’s also me including
myself, Mhm. , and, also a bit in response to your, to
your question -Are you just holding a man flag?- you know, I want to say a bit more
about myself, Mhm. , because that’s also part of shifting the
ground from something, from something critical to something that’s more, I don’t know, dialogical
or something, you know? So, you get to hear about me inside, what
I’m doing, not just me the helpful therapist or the, Mhm. , whatever that is. Okay. You know, even if I can have those three viewpoints
still, I want to say something about me in here. So, let’s see, To say something about me,
or what organizes me to want to press you a bit. Mhm. I’ll just take a minute to reflect on that. Well, yeah, the part of what organizes me
is my man corner. Mhm. And my own, , a bunch of stuff in relation to a woman. Mhm. Woman I’m connected with, attached to, etc. Setting aside whatever my foibles are or whatever,
but just talking about my ground here, then I’d say I’m, kind of, like, I, sort of, said this
in a, sort of, flipping way, but, say, more seriously, as a man, Mhm. , and then I also think other men, my observation,
experience over, you know, many decades, Mhm. You know, I think us guys are, kind of, a
bit dumb in a certain way. I might be a therapist and bla bla bla, but
I’m still, kind of, dumb in a bunch of ways and, Mhm. , in comparison to women’s just whatever,
emotional intelligence, tuned in-ness, etc. So, what I’m calling that dumbness, Mhm. , is, is a little painful for me, like, personally,
or, you know, identification as a man and that’s difficult for me in relation to a woman, Mhm. , because, you know, pretty well a lot of
the time she’s just going to run circles around me in terms of her speed or capacity to recognize
what’s going on emotionally, you know, it, sometimes it takes me, like, anywhere between
twenty minutes and a couple of hours or a day to go -Ohh, I, you know, I actually feel
like this is about that,- and my wife’s like -Why didn’t you say it at the time?- I’m like
-It’s not that easy….- You know, so, it’s a bit, like, that’s difficult for me as a
man, and I’ll generalize to men, to, to keep up with and, Now, that, that can be a bit
of an excuse as well, I realize, but I’m just talking about a, like, an experienced reality
almost. Mhm. So, there’s the painfulness of that for me,
which is keyed in when you talk about you’re, kind of, already half out the door and he’s
half got no idea, you know? So, that’s, kind of, painful for me. So, that partly organizes me to, to, sort
of, identify with him and therefore want to engage you with this, but engage you in a
respectful, intelligent and relational way. Mhm. But that’s part of my, my motivation to engage
you. Okay. The identification with him or me as a man. And then also partly the recognition in there
not just of �us dumb men’ but also �us stubborn men’. Mhm. You know, certainly I’m one hundredth as stubborn
as I was when I was twenty six, Mhm. , you know, God forbid I, I feel sorry for
my first wife, I just think how stubborn I was. I see my daughter’s fiance and I’m, like,
oh my God, you know, young men, But, you know, I still, I still got that reminiscence of
my stubbornness and my peak-headedness and, I can still see that. So, there’s also the, kind of, sadness that
I have about myself or men and our, I don’t know, whatever, male pride, whatever goes
to constitute what ends up as being a, kind of, blindness or resistance to seeing what’s
going on or to listening to the woman, that type of thing. Mhm. So, you know, that also organizes me to want
to engage you around this. Mhm. And, yeah, So, that’s for starter. So, that’s something about my ground in wanting
to, to talk to you about this and go, well, and, I guess, I could say also therefore a
little bit of discomfort I have that you’re getting clearer and he’s got no real idea,
you know, that, that’s painful for me to hear that. Mhm. And, so, that also organizes me to want to
engage you around this. So, that, that’s, that’s some of me in here. Mhm. That’s organizing me to want to press you. Okay. So, I’ve, well, I’ll just say I have said to him
before I would like to live on my own. I’m, I’m just, like, I understand that, you
know, So, it’s not, like, I know, , he’s clueless, I know, I’m just, like, I just didn’t follow through with it. I know, but I’m just, you know what? I’m just, like -I know that, I understand
that phrase, I’ve heard that phrase.- But, you know, to a dumb man, Mhm. , that, that just doesn’t, It doesn’t confuse, It doesn’t connect up all the dots that are
connected for you. Like, you know, I don’t know about him, but
for me it’s, like -She’s in a mood, oh, what the fuck is she talking about? I don’t even want to know about that. Oh, she’s got some ideas, Alright, Oh, God,
that’s fucking horrible. How would that even work?- It just, like,
none of that connects with, Okay. , the relational ground you’re talking about. It just goes somewhere else with a guy. So, even though you think you’re giving that
message. Mhm. I speak for myself, I pretty well, sure, that’s
not getting, going to a translation machine to equal what you’re actually saying or to
represent for him -Ohh, that means,- you know? Okay. That’s not happening. Well, while you’re saying that, this is what’s
coming up for me. When do I get to stop being responsible for
his deficiencies? Look, I, I’m familiar with all this. Yes, I can understand that question fair enough,
you’re fifty, you know, you don’t want to be, you had the babies, you don’t want the
baby at home that you have to educate and, Right. , become emotionally literate and that, you
know, what’s he doing? Is he doing the workshops? Is he doing the therapy? No. You know? Like, i understand, you know, I think some
of your whatever that is, rolling the eyes, tiredness, yeah, You don’t have to take respon, I mean, isn’t it okay for me to get to a point
where I say -Well, I have put in a lot of effort,- Not saying that I’m perfect, you
know, I have my own, Yeah, sure, .., issues that I bring to the relationship. Yeah, yeah. But isn’t it okay to, to for me to say, when
I get to a point where I’m, like -I am full to here.- Yeah, So -Now, I’m, that’s enough.- That’s enough. Yeah. Well, look. I want to acknowledge that firstly. You’re full to here. Mhm. I get that. That’s enough. Mhm. I get that. Those, you know, I respect and, and acknowledge
that that’s how it is for you. Mhm. Full up, had enough, don’t want to take responsibility
for the guy, he’s, for God’s sake, he’s, you know, fifty plus himself, what the hell. Though, he’s not actually, Well, how old is he? Forty two. Forty two. Okay. Well, you know, he’s an adult. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he is, isn’t he. So, So, I, I can appreciate that in your position
and, you know, that sounds fair enough and fits into your, what I’m hearing, as your
almost inexorable sounding process of �I’m out of here’ So, when I hear that, I, Just pausing a moment, because it’s, like,
yeah, okay, that is how it is for you. I guess the first thing is just to hear that. Mhm. That is how it is for you. You know, if I’m him, I’d probably got all
sorts of defensive and, you know, what about my, But, you know, just leaving outside all
that, you know, I’m not him, so I can just go -Yeah, that sucks to be up to here and
I can understand that.- Yeah, So, I mean, like, when you say press me on my
due diligence, does that mean continue to consider if I’ve, Well, I can, , done all I can do on my side? Well, I can pick you up on some of the details. In those two cases you just gave me the last
week, Oh, okay, I can pick you up on some of the details of
that… Well, that’s fair, though that’s fair. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But I’m also keeping in mind this, you know, Yeah, … and I want to come back to that at some
point. Okay. So, okay. So, the, the, uhm, Let’s come back to the
detail, the showing him the thing with your excitement and then the next day the suggesting
couples counseling. Okay. Mhm. So, you come with your excitement and, I’ll
say, of course you want to be met in that place, Right. Of course you do. Who doesn’t? What human being doesn’t want to be met in
their pleasure and their excitement? And you especially want to be met by partner. So, I want to acknowledge. Of course I can understand, you feel disappointed
and sad and angry when you’re not only not met in that place, you’re, kind of, get the,
what do you call it? The dark door? Oh, around dog’s house. Around dog’s house. Mhm. Response. Mhm. I can understand that, you know, So, So, here’s one piece. You know. And this is like coming out from a bit of
a meta-level, this isn’t so much in the moment thing, but it might be a meta-statement. And maybe you’ve already made this kind of
meta statement, I don’t know, I haven’t heard that, I don’t know the detail. But the meta-statement might be something
like this: �’I notice sometimes, when I bring my excitement to you, what I really
yearn for is just for you to be with me in that place, to join with me. I want you to join with me, I want you to,
to feel your connection with me, I want to share the pleasure with you or the very least
I want you to be pleased at my pleasure, whether or not that’s something that’s your thing
or your interest or even excites you, but I want you to join me in that place. And when you don’t join me in that place,
I feel sad, devastated, angry and I’m letting you know that that’s very important to me.” Mhm. That’s like a meta-statement. Mhm, mhm. Does that represent what, how it is for you? I’m paraphrasing, Mhm. Mhm. Yeah? I would say so. That’s right? Okay. Mhm. Have you made that kind of statement to him? Well, I want to say I made it as nicely as
that, but I think what I said was: �You know, when I, When I come to you and
I try to share something with you,” Because I, I, my experience would be that he gets
defensive or/either turns the conversation into something that, Or negates you, , he wants to talk about. Okay. Yeah. So, then I’m, kind of, shut out of the conversation. Yeah, I get that. So, what I said to him was: �You know, when
I come to you and I want to share something with you,� like, it can be anything, I said:
�I’m just trying to connect with you. I want to get closer to you.� Oh, but they see the… Okay, now I’m going to pause you there. Okay. There’s just something a little tricky about
�I’m trying to connect with you’, which is true, Mhm. The other side of that is, though, and what’s
more purtunant in a sense, is that you want him to connect with you. Ohh, I see. Okay, yes. And while it sounds like, That makes a difference. , you’re being generous -Hey I want to connect
with you in this place,- Okay, Now, that’s true, but, Okay, yeah. I see that. , narcissistically, Ohh, , you want him to connect with you. Right. Okay. And that’s where the rub is, Oh, , because that’s what’s difficult for him
and he, Right, , kind of, want you to connect with him or
something. Oh, So, that’s where the, kind of, Huh. , the friction is. So, the more accurate, if I can say more fully
owned statement, Uh huh, , is: �In that place, I need you to connect
with me, even if you’re not in the mood, you don’t feel like it, that’s not your interest,
I, I want you to sacrifice what’s important for you, even for five minutes, so that you
join with me over here.� Hm. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, I’ll have to consider that. Hm. Okay. So, that’s one piece. Mhm. You know, it’s a little adjustment but it’s
pretty significant actually, Yeah, it is. , because it represents, like, to narcissistic
selfobject needs, you know, Yes. So, really, it comes back to some pretty core
stuff that goes on in relationship, Yeah, Who gets the flag, you know. Mhm. Whose turn is it? That kind of thing. And it’s particularly difficult when both
people want their turn. So, Right, , you know, the, even as a development on
from that, a possibility is to introduce some sort of meta-language, like flag language. Like -Hey, you know, when I do that, it’s
like I’m putting up my flag, Mhm. , and what I need at that point from you is
that you don’t put up your flag, Mhm, , you don’t put up your flag for attention
or interest, you know, that you set aside your flag just for five minutes, Right. , join with me in my flag, you know, and then,
and then, you know, we can take it in turns or something, Mhm. , but I need, that’s fundamental to me, that
you drop your flag.- And then that can potentially become a language that you can employ like
-Hey, right now, this is a flag moment.- Mhm. You know, if you, Okay. , got the precedence to do that, Mhm. , then that’s very fair, Mhm. , warning to him. -Hey, Okay. , this is, That I’m expecting him to connect with me. That’s right. Okay. This is a flag moment. It makes sense. You know, So, I mean, I’m not saying that’s
going to work, he’s going to make sense of it, he’s going to it, Right, , but at least, at least you lay the groundwork, Right, , in, in a very explicit way… Mhm. , and create a, kind of, language that might
then be a common language that you can employ, rather than just your language that he, Right, , doesn’t necessarily fully grasp. Right. Okay. That makes sense. And is good practice for me, Yes. , to express what I need. Yes. That’s right. Unambiguously. Mhm. Yeah. Because I see now saying the other way I’m
really not saying what I need really. That’s right. I’m saying what I’m expecting. Yes. And you’re, Yeah, , kind of, confusing him… I didn’t see it like that. Yeah. , because when you say �connect with you’,
he’s like -Okay, well, connect with me then.- You know, it’s, kind of, Yeah. , a bit cross, Yeah, , cross-messages, Yeah, okay. , in that sense. So, Alright. That makes sense. Okay. So, that’s one piece. Okay. And then, if I can come to the, Mhm. Now, what was the, how did you phrase it? -I, what do you think of us doing couples
counseling?- How did you,? Oh, what did I say? I thoughts that’s, No, I think I said -How do you, How do you, -How do you feel, How do you feel, , about us going to couples counseling?- That’s right. Okay. Now, that seems like innocuous question. Yes. It seems like a reasonable question. Uh huh, It seems like an invitational question. Mhm. And in, in a, in a place where there was common
ground, Mhm. , that might lead to a different kind of conversation. Right. But given that it sounds like there isn’t
a certain, kind of, ground there yet, then �What do you feel about us going to couples
counseling?’, Mhm. Oh, , is a little, is a little blunt in comparison,
Again, it’s, kind of, it’s putting something into the relationship that, in a way, originates
from you. Right. So, if I come back to you and we lea, If you
don’t use the word �we’ and you don’t ask a question, Mhm. , how would you rephrase that? I, would like to go to couples counseling? Mhm. Okay, that’s, that’s a good start. However, is that really accurate? �I would like to,’ It sounds like it’s a
little bit more valiance than that, if you’re really going to represent yourself. I feel like, if we’re going to do, stay together, See if you can do without the �we’ word. Okay. Oh. I feel like, if I’m going to be able to stay
in this relationship, I need to go to couples counseling with you. Okay. That’s really much clearer. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And if you take, And maybe that, I… maybe I didn’t really
want to say that, because, Yeah, okay. Yeah, that’s right. That’s where it’s a little tricky on your
part. Yeah, You know, Uh huh, The due diligence might be a little sleight
of hand… Well, yeah, , a little bit tired, OK… Okay. Okay. So, I’m just, pressing you on that. Okay. Okay, so if you took the words �I feel like’
and you just said it directly, what, how would you say it? I think I would just say, I mean, I don’t
know. I’m almost thinking like I really should get
down to the nitty gritty, Mmm, Okay. So, , but I’m not for sure if I want to get to
the nitty gritty, Well, just try it out here, just try it here. You know, he’s not here, so you can try different
statements. Okay. I think, if I was really going to get down
to the nitty gritty, I would say -I,- And it’s okay for me to say �I feel’? Yeah, well, Like, �If I feel,’? … just give it a go, try it out. I feel like, our relationship is in a place, you know,
where I just don’t feel good in it any more and that we need, Try to do without the �we’. Okay. I would need someone who’s objective to help
me feel like I could continue in the relationship, to help make me feel like I want to continue. Right. Okay. Okay. So, what’s the, how do.. What’s your experience when you make that
statement? It feels a little scary, because then I’m
telling him, like, how I really feel about, Yeah… … where we are… , you are. , which I’m, kind of, keeping a secret. Yeah. Kind of. Not really, but kind of I am. Because you want to get him to the couples
counseling and then say it? With the support of the therapist? Is that your plan? No, No? I thought, you know, I wasn’t really thinking,
like, if we went to couples counseling, right? Mhm. And objective person, You know, because I
was still ambivalent about whether I was making a right choice or if I wasn’t seeing my part
of it. So, I thought if we went to couples counseling,
you know, that objective third eye could see my part and his part. You know, like, each person. It’s easier for me to see, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, , his part, and easier for him to see my part,
but the third person could see my part and say -Eh, you know, you’re doing this,- and,
you know, we could work from there. Well, that’s an interesting proposition. I’ll just paraphrase. You know, I’m, I’m having doubts about continuing
with you and I want to go to couples counseling with you because I’d like to hear someone
other than you confront me about what I might not be doing well in this relationship. Mhm. I don’t know if I can remember it that nicely. Well, I’m just paraphrasing, I know, , you know. But, does that fit? Oh, yeah. Because, No, it fits. , that’s what I hear you saying. No, that’s what it is. Now, see, you know, if I hear that message,
if I’m your partner and I hear that message, that’s really different, it’s, like, Yeah, -Oh, right, That’s true. , you, A) right, you know, I think you continue,
wow, okay bing bing bing bing, you know, just take that seriously; B) Oh, this isn’t about criticizing me, this
is because you’re not sure about, you know, whether, you know, someone else might be critical
of you as well. Like, you know, that’s a whole different ears
that I listen to that with. Mhm, I feel like it’s just one side of it. Yeah, And what’s the other side? The other side is part of the answer that
I got, which was -I don’t need anyone giving me advice, I meditate on myself and I know
myself and I don’t need someone telling me, you know, what I’m doing wrong,- Okay, I don’t, really, I don’t want to hear
criticism from the therapist either. Right. That, Right. , was the answer that I got when I asked about, Okay, well, , the couples counseling. , then that’s tricky then, because there’s,
like, part of you, honestly, is interested in the third eye, including in, you know,
what am I not doing here that I’m not seeing. Mhm. And I said that. I said -Well, I want, you know, you know,
sometimes, Yeah, but you didn’t lead with that, No, I didn’t. The leading, I didn’t lead with that. , is the key, because otherwise, I didn’t lead with that. , staright away he’s ofisde. So, that’s part of it. But it sounds like you’re ambivalent. There’s a part of you that’s interested in
that and a part of you that, kind of, concerned about the, you know, being criticized by the
therapist, and therefore, Not me. Oh, He said that. That was his answer to me about wanting to, Oh, His answer, , couples counseling. … is that, -I don’t need anyone telling me what I’m supposed
to do, Of course, yeah. Well, that’s right, his fear that, and that’s
a valid fear. I mean, I would respect that fear. Yes, you don’t want to be criticized, you
don’t need advice, sure. But, then, you know, if you, if this is about
you, then it’s not about him being criticized, it’s about him being with you while you get
some feedback. No, I think it’s about both of us getting
feedback. Right, yeah, except he’s, Except, when I’m, you’re saying I’m, Except he’s, Okay, now, this is what I’m hearing, okay? That impulse to water it down for him to, I’m not talking about watering down, .. be able to accept it. I’m talking about owning your bit of it. No! Yeah. I told him that I want to be able to see my
part, Yeah, .. but I feel like I’m supposed to say to
him I want to go to see my part, so that he can accept it. Is that what I’m supposed to,? Well, the, you know, the, the, Is that what you’re saying? , the agenda bit, the getting, getting, having
an agenda for him to do anything is tricky. Like, you’re already preempting what’s going
to happen, you’re already trying to, kind of, set up the whole thing in a particular
way, including having him have anything out of it. Of course you want him there, but, you know,
the most powerful thing is -This is my work, I want to do it and I want you there to support
me in it.- Okay. You know. Beucase he’s very clear, he’s scared shitles
of being criticized or advised or, Right, right, …. you know, he, he, there’s no part of
him that sees anything good is for him in there. Right, So, you know, he doesn’t have probably a conception
of how that could be good. I mean, I saw a couple, there’s a couple I
saw in China who, I mean, long marriage, kids, etc. He’s out the door, he’s ha, you know, he’s
at his limit, he’s, you know, she’s not interested in sex, bla bla bla, you know, and he’s got
his problems, you know. So, the marriage is falling apart, probably
already fallen apart, I mean, further down the track he’s already got the other girlfriend
and things like that and she will not accept that. She’s just, like -No, that’s not going to
happen, there’s,- you know, she’s in complete denial. So, he, he didn’t want to come to couples
therapy. And I gave her that instruction, tell him
-I need you to come to support me.- you know, Well, okay, So, he came, and I was working with her, and
then I could start to see it wasn’t just that he’s the bad guy, Right. , who’s, you know, running, I mean, she’s
completely shattered and not, not listening to him and really doesn’t care what he wants,
you know, but I could see a whole other picture when both were there, Right. So, as I was working with him, he became really
in, with her, he became really interested. He was like, he could see that this wasn’t
just about, you know, him being the bad guy and, Right. , like, so, he, I could see, he started to
lean forward and he was, like, in fact, he’s liking the fact that I’m, kind of, engaging
with her about these things that he can’t, you know. So, he started to soften and opened up and
then I could turn to him and start talking to him and he could feel -Oh, this is for
me, in fact, this is better than I could have possibly imagined.- But, there’s no way that
he could’ve thought that it could be like that before. He got no place in his mind that he could
conceive that that could happen. Okay. You know. So, part of it is, yeah, he, he doesn’t, can’t
get that, so, Meeting him where he is. That’s right. So, Okay, , you now, That makes sense. , he is on the defensiveness, he doesn’t want
to hear anything, okay. So, it’s, it’s about you, primarily. Okay. I mean, it would be nice if he was interested
and he would join with you, Right. , but that’s not where he’s at, you know, Right. So, this is one way to, to do that and that’s
a very well-known on couples therapist and family therapist Michael White, that was what
he used to say, when we’re training with him, people would say, because he only works with,
you know, couples, systems, couples, families, and he would say, you know, people would say
-Well, how do you get the partner?- He’d say -Well, say �I need to do this for me, would
you come along to support me?’- Okay. You know, and he said that he never, nobody
ever said �No.’ to that. Yeah, Alright. Well, I mean, I feel like if I’m really ambivalent,
right, then I would be willing to try. I would be willing to try that and see how
it goes. So, that’s the two things that I’m pressing
you on in detail, from the examples you’ve given me. I guess that another thing that I want to
respond to is to this and to this. Mhm. You know, because, okay, I mean, there’s nothing
I’m going to criticize about this, that is your experience and if I’m like this, I’m
over the, the line and I’ve got nothing else to give and, you know, I’m under, like, I
get that. I can get how that connects to this. So, I guess, the place I’d press you there
is just the, well, I’m going to say, call it the authentic communication about that. Now, the tricky thing is, well, how do you
do that in a way that doesn’t either invite criticism from him or or it doesn’t seem critical
of him. Mhm. So, I mean, if you’re open to, Mhm, yeah, yeah, , responding to that, then one way, again,
is firstly to set it up with a meta-statement, Mhm, , to say -You may not be aware of this, the
fact is that I’m like this in the relationship, which means that I’m, I’m, kind of, actually
over my limit, Mhm. , I’ve gone beyond my capacity to, to take
in stuff, to deal with conflict, to take criticism, I’m, that’s me, that’s just, that’s not reactive
statement, that just is the fact. So, I’m in this relationship, but I’m, I’m,
kind of, sort of, it’s too much, actually. I’m drowning. And that’s… the only way that I know how
to deal with that now is to go like this, Mhm. You know, and that means pushing your way
out and cutting off from you, you know, that I don’t know how else to cope with that other
than,- That’s the meta-statement, Okay. , to set up, Mhm. , for him some understanding that this is
not, this isn’t even something to discuss, you know, that’s, that’s not, there’s no discussion
about that. That’s just how it is. Right. You know, and, of course, I don’t know how
he’s going to take that, but that is how it is. If he starts to argue or something, you can
simply say -Look, this isn’t, there’s nothing to discuss, I’m just letting you know, so
that you, you know, so that I’m being honest with you.- Mhm. Then, having set up that meta-statement, then
that can become one of these flags for you and for him of at whatever points you reach
that, which may be on a fairly regular basis, of doing what Korzybski calls, what’s the
word, he’s got a term for it, it’s, it’s a nonverbal, indicator. So, that looks like this. So, when you talk and you reach that point
where you just go like this, you go -Hey, this is one of those moments when I’m here,
which means that I’m here, which means I’m not taking in anything from you and I have
nothing to give you right now. I’m sorry but that’s, that’s the fact. I’m, I’m cutting off relationship with you
right now because I’m here.- Mhmm.. Now, I mean, if he keeps going after that
point, then he really is stupid, but, you know, that’s something you can do, not just
for him, but, kind of, for yourself. It’s, like, authenticity, kind of, statement. And that is more powerful than language, once
you’ve set up the signifier for what that is. Right. It’s much more powerful than words, because
you’re, like -Yes, this is where, what’s happening and that means I’m doing this.- And that’s,
that’s very powerful. Okay. So, how does that fit for you? I think it could work. I think it could work. I mean, I would be willing to try it. I would be willing to try it. Well, at the very least, it can work with
you and your authenticity… Right, right. , and that’s the solid ground, in a way. Who knows what he’s going to do with that, Right. , but you’re being fully present with what
it, Right, Mhm. , in a way which is, kind of, safe, in a sense,
because there’s, it doesn’t, there’s no criticism here. I mean, if he, Right. , starts to criticize, that’s, kind of, crazy. Like, you can even just tell him -There’s
nothing to criticize here, this is just a statement of what is and I’m letting you know.-
So, there’s a, kind of, safety in that, too, potentially, that you can stand on a solid
ground. It seems reasonable. Mmm, Mhm. So, those are some of the places that I’m
pushing you on a little bit. Mhm. Okay. I mean, that’s reasonable. Mmm…mmm, Mhm. That’s reasonable. And, I mean, it’s fair. Yeah. Mhm. It’s fair. You know, and then if, then if I’m on the
guy side and you do those things like go -Well, that’s fair.- Mhm. I’m, like, yeah, that’s fair. And if I’m, if I’m going to do something other
than respect that, Mhm, , you know, then I’m being a stupid guy, Mmm, , unfortunately. And, Okay. So, I’m going to need you to email me the
meta-statements, Okay. Yeah, Well, they reflect your ground, you
know, so, yeah, I guess, you know, I guess I could to add one more thing, which is, then,
to give you an insight from a guy point of view and maybe I’ll do this as a final thing. I don’t know, it’s, like it might be something
like this. You know, if you were to say to me, you know, -I don’t really want to end this relationship, Mhm. , but I need you to not be the stupid guy.-
I mean, you got to say this when things are calm, you know. -I need you to not be the stupid guy, because
otherwise it’s not going to work. And the stupid guy means that when I’m being
honest with you and I’m owning my stuff, you know, either for you to put me down or ignore
me, that’s being the stupid guy, you know? And that’s, you know, that’s going to lose
you the relationship.- That’s confronting me as the guy in a way which I think is appropriate
and if I’ve got any possibility of relationship, I would pay attention to that. Mhm, Okay. You know.. And then that can also become a meta-flag
that you got to use very judiciously, Mhm. You know, you can’t use it retaliatory, fashion, Right, right, , knock him on the head, Mhm. , but even after something, you could say,
you know -That was a stupid guy thing you did and if you keep doing that, you will lose
this relationship.- Mhm. That’s, you know, that’s the kind of language
a guy can get. Mhm. Okay. Very plain, very straightforward, just spelling
it out. Okay. I can try. So, how did we do? How did you do with,? I felt okay. I felt okay. Hm, I mean, it didn’t feel too, like, you know,
I was being judged, you know, Hmm, I felt fine. See, what I’d like to do now is work with
your husband and teach him how to criticize, you know? Mhm. I could go -Hey, dude, the way you criticize
is not working. Let me show you a different way to criticize,
that’s going to be more effective and won’t lose you the marriage.- That’s the angle I’d
come to him. Hm. Good luck. Well, it’s working within his frame, you see. Mhm.. Okay. I’m not criticizing him. Mhm, mmm, Okay, I see. Yeah. I’m not like -Just let me teach you a better
way to criticize.- Good work. Hm, So, you could also drop that at some point. That’s the last thing I’ll say. Okay. You go -I know a guy who can teach you how
to criticize in a way that won’t lose you the marriage.- Hmm, Okay. Okay. I’ll try it. That’ll be my last one. Yeah. okay. Well, I appreciate you bearing with this process, Thank you. , and willing to let me press you on these
matters and I do appreciate your willingness to consider these things, because I get this… Mhm. So, you know, I realize you’re doing it from
this place, so, there’s not much left there. So, the fact that you’re doing any of this
is already a, kind of, bonus of your own effort and I acknowledge that. Mhm. Well, thank you. Thank you for your viewpoint. Hm, Okay, we’ll finish it there, I guess. Yeah…

Michael Martin

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